I ran across this. Notice the description going all the way up to 100k. Seems like more than you usually hear about for finishing a razor. What am I missing?
https://www.facebook.com/bertarellic...type=3&theater
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I ran across this. Notice the description going all the way up to 100k. Seems like more than you usually hear about for finishing a razor. What am I missing?
https://www.facebook.com/bertarellic...type=3&theater
Most likely they are talking about Paste / Diamond / CBN after the hones
Or they are just lost in their own little reality :p
Edit:
There was some idiot for awhile on Amazon/Ebay making BS claims about his 50K J-Nats and SRs but I think he went away or enough people called him on it and he changed it :shrug:
I've seen it before. There make past for strops. Last I herd from them the guy had a thing for kangaroo leather and was working on a 200k finish.
Just one simple thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ericd
Reality.
It is called promotion and marketing. Make something sound out of reach and semi mystical and a bunch of unsuspecting newbies will bite and send you their money. Milk the situation till you can and the go work on the next con. Rinse and repeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ericd
You would not even want to go that far if you could. You need to stop at a point where an edge can support itself.
Boy, those ebay scamster's are something to behold, greedy little........
Thank god you came to the right place, here we do not deal in excess. No, no excess here…
Yea, probably paste, some are higher than 100K, though don’t know if you would call it a 100k edge.
He probably read about it here first…
Have heard some sellers say their leather strop is equal to 100k
I know that CBN abrasive spray is available all the way down to .10 micron, which should be well over 100k grit. As mentioned above, I am sure they are talking about treated stropping instead of hones.
I just wrote and asked them. They finished on a balsa strop with 0.25 micron CBN, which, by my reckoning is correct - 100,000k.
25um is about 60k. CBN on balsa can get aggressive and harsh. It is very easy to get an edge too keen. Smaller is not always better Comfort is the name of the game…
I like paper or cloth better for CBN. With nano grits, the substrate makes a big difference in performance.
Here is the CBN conversion chart.
Available CBN Abrasive Sizes from Ken Schwartz
Abrasive size in microns (μ) Grit Size (JNS)
80.0 #180
45.0 #320
30.0 #500
15.0 #1,000
4.0 #4,000
2.0 #8,000
1.5 (1 1/2) #12,000
1.0 #16,000
0.75 (3/4) #24,000
0.50 (1/2) #30,000
0.25 (1/4) #60,000
0.125 (1/8) #120,000
0.10 (1/10) #160,000
I've never used anything above a CrOx pasted paddle (roughly 30k, .5), I'm not sure you would actually feel any real difference going much higher
Oh yea, you will. .50UM is completely different than .50 Chrome Oxide, keener. .25 is smooth and keen .125 is a good maintenance paste from .50 and .10 is weeper keen, too sharp for me, like a brand new feather in an aggressive DE.
A lot depends on the substrate, leather is different than nylon, Linen, cloth or paper. And each blade will take a different edge. I shaved with 3 razors this morning, a wide,Joseph Elliot, full hollow Clauss and very hollow 6/8 Sheffield J. Pinder. All honed the same and stropped on .50 and .25um CBN, they all felt different.
I have never gone past .5, and don't really feel the need to since my shaves are good. I do want to try CBN though, diamond is a little harsh so I finish on CROX after diamond spray and that tends to tone it down a bit.
This makes sense. Since everything was listed as "k" my brain just thought hones which did not seem logical. Had it been in microns it would have been obvious to me. Of course, changing unit of measure would be confusing to another reader.Quote:
Originally Posted by puketui41
So you want to talk excessive.
Take a good metal polish, Mass or Mothers, paint 3in X’s of either on the inside of a Cereal box cardboard. (By the way with Christmas here, save some of the thin, cheap wrapping boxes, they are larger than Cereal boxes and they make great strops for experimenting with paste.
Now take a razor up to a good finish quality edge, 8 or 12k, now do 50 laps on the pasted cardboard, you will remove all or most all the stria. Now finish, on your finish stone of choice. What you will have is a pure, whatever your stone of choice is edge. The metal paste edge is too rough to shave on but your finisher will clean it up, you may have to lightly joint the edge on the finish stone, depending on how aggressive you got with the paste.
You have to let the paste dry.
Save those boxes, they come in handy.
Excessive? Maybe a little…
Again, reality...
Yes, you can polish a bevel with ultra small grit CBN until you cannot see any scratches. It will look very impressive under a microscope.
Of course, the first time you shave or even strop, you will find that the scratches are back, the edges are slightly roughed up, and if you are lucky you will be right back to where you should have stopped in your progression in the first place.
Someone ought to save and frame this thread.
Around 10+ years ago if I had said there would be posts on all these Jnats and exotic hones out there folks would have said I was crazy.
Mark my word the day will come when guys will be using these crazy materials with super high grits.
I've honed/polished using the diamond and CBN pastes up to 100k and couldn't get a comfortable shave out of the crumbling edge. It does work well on heavier blades like hunting knifes, axes, lathe gouges, etc. , but for a razor or other thin edge the most I do is 50k diamond paste followed by 30k CrOx to smooth out the wire edge.
The goal is not a shiny bevel, though a good metal polish will can remove all visible stria at 400X, it is to lay a finish stone stria pattern on a fully set bevel with no other stria on it. The only stria is the finish stone.
Theoretically if you go through a proper progression you end up with just the finish stone stria, but not always. Is it really all that different from some Jnat progressions?
And yes it is excessive, but it works and it’s not all that much works and no the edge does not crumble.
Yes, if you use a CBN progression the bevel can be shiny, depending on how many laps you do, but there is no degradation of the edge, and it is a smooth shave, but at .10um it is very keen.
We are talking excess here. And yes, TBS on some of the Knife sites guys are doing this and more, cutting down high grit synthetics and naturals for honing jigs, on EDC knives, just to get a shiny bevel.
Whatever floats your boat… but it all moves the needle forward eventually.
There is a limit to how far the needle can go. Whatever happens on the bevel ends up on the edge and taking the polish to the extreme described here may yield a (relatively) more pristine edge; but as I already said, a single stropping or shave will diminish that edge. I have much greater faith in edges of high quality hones. They may not yield something as pretty under the microscope, but they produce a high quality and durable shaving edge.
Then, don’t strop on leather. An edge can be maintained on CBN and a paper or cloth strop with one of the higher grits, .25,.125 or even .10um for a very long time, with just a few laps and without any edge degradation, it will convex the bevel slightly but that is a good thing, just like Chrome or Cerium Oxide.
Not all that many years ago, an 8K Norton was the hot ticket, and some crazy guys were using 12k stones and taping spines, OMG can you believe it?… Here recently, many fought the GS20 stones as excessive waste…
It all moves the needle forward, who knows what the limit is. It is not just about keenness, comfort is more important than keenness. And we are making strides in both directions, the finer the stria the straighter, smoother the edge.
We are talking about “a high quality and durable shaving edge” and about Excess in this post…
Today’s excess is tomorrows normal. Like I said, guys are cutting up Jnats and GS20s to hone EDC knives on jigs. And some guys still hone razors on a full natural progression… Do what makes you happy.
Like a wise man once said… “Have Fun”.